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Bike Buying Report: XYZENCE NY / April 24, 2008
By Amanda Betsold (TriLife IronTeam 2008)

Footnotes and post-game analysis by
Ross Galitsky / TriLife Coaching

TriLife

 

Quick navigation / topic jump: 
Amanda's experience: Process of selection
Amanda's experience: Cheesesteaks or apples
Amanda's experience: The fit is key
Amanda's experience: D-day
Amanda's experience: Customer service for life
FOOTNOTES to Amanda's experience
Post-Game Analysis - Bike selection process: "A-"
Post-Game Analysis - Price negotiation: "B-"
Post-Game Analysis - Spec'd bike: "B"
Post-Game Analysis - Bike fit: "C"

Bike Buying Report: XYZENCE NY / April 24, 2008
By Amanda Betsold (TriLife IronTeam 2008)

Footnotes and post-game analysis by
Ross Galitsky / TriLife Coaching

Some of you asked and some of you had a good laugh this morning about my bike buying experience, so I thought I'd share story with the rest of the team. Read at your own risk. I don't want to bias anyone's opinion, so I'll let you make your own judgment about XYZENCE(1) and what constitutes a proper bike fit.

Process of Selection

I started bike search process with Will Alvarado at Toga(2) on the Upper East Side. After debating the merits of a custom Guru(3) and realizing that we were clear out of my preferred color choices since so many current IronTeam athletes own them(4), Will guided me to continue my search at other bike shops in the area. As you probably know, most New York City bike shops have their "specialty." You can usually tell what this is just by window shopping or staff attitude. You learn a lot fast if you keep your eyes, ears and mind open. (I learned all about how a lot of people ride on $10,000 bikes in Central Park because they read one “killer review” in a men's magazine, for example.) I checked Gotham, SBR, Toga’s West Side store, Sid’s and R&A (Brooklyn) in my hunt for small frame sizes. Apparently, when you are 5' 3" (and a half!), you have very few options if you want a bike with 700C wheels. (And if you have ever changed multiple consecutive flats on 9W and run out of spare inner tubes in the middle of winter, you know that more common 700C wheels are a much better option to have than the smaller, rarer 650C wheels.) The search narrowed my options down to the custom Guru and a Kuota. That led me to my last stop, XYZENCE.

I had my doubts about XYZENCE. I had heard rumors about it being an "upscale and pretentious" shop. But I figured that those rumors shouldn’t stop me from using their store for research purposes only. So, after walking to the end of the Earth (or at least Manhattan), I finally arrived at XYZENCE. With its wood floors, large showroom space, Endless pool, spinning room, and spa-like locker rooms—I knew I was out of my league but I ask about the Kuota. There's one frame left in my size. In the color I want (mainly white). And on sale at a 38% discount. OK, it is fate. The catch...the frameset is in XYZENCE’s store in another city. Time for a road trip...

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Cheesesteaks or Apples

After a quick day-trip to the out-of-town XYZENCE, I fall in love with the frameset. I’m sold. Not knowing much about XYZENCE, except for their promise of being "the world's cycling and multisport authority" and priding themselves on "the principle of not simply satisfying our customers, but of surpassing their expectations," I came in with very few expectations, so they should have had no trouble surpassing them. Boy was I in for a surprise or two. (You will actually count nine). After pricing out all components and accessories, the very nice YYZENCE salesman suggested I take his quote back to NYC and have them build the bike there. They would even ship the frame to the NYC shop for me. Awesome!

Surprise No. 1: I called XYZENCE NYC on Monday after returning and had them get the frameset from the other XYYZENCE. I told them all the components I wanted and asked when it would be ready. "It will be in at the end of the week. You can pay your deposit then." I walk in the following Sunday with cash in hand only to have my sweet NYC sales assistant come over to me with a frame in hand and ask if I wanted to see “my bike” again before paying. Of course I did! He thrusts out the frame in his hand. "That is not my bike," I said. He was holding an all-black frameset. "It is not?" "No." So, I went home and started calling other bike shops looking for the “right” frame.

Many bike shops say they will match their competitors’ prices since they want your business(5). I called the few local Kuota dealers I could find online, including R&A in Brooklyn, and no one would match the price of the wrong-colored frame XYZENCE was offering me. (Like I said, it was a steal. I should have known.) "OK, so it is not the color they told me it is," I thought to myself, "but it is a darn good deal and I can make it my own." I called XYZENCE next day to tell them “I will take it” and “…with all components and accessories we discussed.”

Surprise No. 2: "Oh, we do not have the Shimano components in stock; we will have to order those from (the other) XYZENCE." "You do not have those in-house? I though they are pretty standard?" "Yes." "Hmph..." We go over pricing and I find out that through XYZENCE NYC, the frame will be an extra $55, the bike fit and labor $50 more, and materials an extra $10.

Surprise No. 3: Me: "Should I just get it in (the other) XYZENCE? It is easy enough for me to get there" Them: "Do not worry about it, we will make it work." Then another week goes by as we wait for the components to come in, after which I can put down my deposit, schedule a fit and have them start building the bike. I go in on Friday (again with cash in hand) to put down my deposit.

Surprise No. 4: Them: "So what components would you like?" Me: Really?

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The Fit is Key

Fast forward another two weeks. It's here! Whenever you buy a new bike, fit is obviously crucial. Anyone can Google approximate bike sizing and figure out what size frame they need. The important part is having a professional take stock of your measurements, fitness/flexibility level and training needs and make sure the bike fits properly. I specifically made sure to ask for one of XYZENCE's “expert” fitters. "You have nothing to worry about; all our fitters are excellent." 

Surprise No. 5: The in-depth fit process begins by having me fill out a half-page questionnaire with standard questions: name, address, height, weight, how many hours per week you train, what level rider you consider yourself ("basic recreational," "advanced recreational,” etc.). Fill this form out very carefully as it will never be looked at or referenced again. Statistics such as height and weight will also not be verified (even if you are not sure of the current answers) because XYZENCE does not own a scale or tape measure long enough to do so. So, after learning that I must workout three days per week (thanks to the rigorous TriLife schedule), the store’s extremely knowledgeable "cycling coach" begins my bike fit. This process starts with inseam measure (the straddling of the seat height measuring thingy), a quick hamstring stretch to determine flexibility, and a 15 minute lecture on why it is important to change the cleats on my shoes(6). An hour into the process, I can finally get on the bike. I hop on and realize that there is no way I am keeping the installed saddle (which was not one that I picked out). As discussed before my fitting, part of what I wanted to accomplish that day was finding the saddle and aerobars that are best suited for me…

Surprise No 6: I ask if we can test other saddles to find one that fits me better and is relatively comfortable. The "coach" fiddles with four different wrenches. Forty minutes go by and the bike saddle is still attached to the bike. Call in the mechanic. He detaches the seat and puts on a new one. This one is also definitely not going to work. Instead of offering I try another one, "coach" tells me that I should practice moving forward and backward in my saddle, along with standing more out of the saddle. (Because I really want to climb out of the saddle for 112 miles!) After getting the look of death for wanting to test yet another saddle, I agree to use the saddle off my own road bike, and intend to look for a more suitable saddle at another bike shop on my own later. While the mechanic is putting the saddle from the road bike I rode to the shop on onto the new frame, I hesitantly ask if I can see my handlebar/aerobar options. "I cannot help you with that, you will have to ask the guys up front," says the “coach,” who is a little frustrated over an hour and a half into the bike fit. (During which time I have been on the bike for a record 60 seconds.) So I go up front to look at handlebar options and, after realizing I have already annoyed every salesman (who want to go home because it is closing time on a Saturday afternoon), I resign myself to the previously assigned bars.

With that done, it’s time (after almost 2 hours) to start the actual fitting. Woo-hoo! After less than 10 minutes of pedaling (during the entire bike fit) and some very unscientific angle measurements, it is decided that the seat height was adjusted right from the beginning. What a miracle. Oh wait, maybe it is because we measured the seat height of my road bike. (Good thing the geometry of the two bikes is exactly the same(7).) Next up, it’s time for the aerobars. It seems that coach doesn’t really care if the bars are the right height or length since she only measured the width of my shoulders with a tape measure and decided I need the smallest bars available based only on this dimension. She has me get down in aero position and asks how it feels. She says it looks good, so I let her know the bars are way too far apart for my shoulders. After adjusting them myself, she tells me that they look rather narrow. Good thing we had the trusty tape measure and my road bike with its clip-on bars, because when we measure the bars that are currently on that bike (thanks to a previous bike fit), the distance is now exactly the same. "Guess you know your measurements." (Guess I should have fit myself at home…) Next I let her know that the aerobars are too long because I cannot reach the shifters. And I do not mean I cannot reach them comfortably, I mean I cannot reach them at all. Twenty minutes later it is determined that they cannot cut the aerobars shorter unless I want to buy a $70 attachment because of the way bars are designed. Me: "You can’t cut off the back of the bars where extensions are straight and flat?" Coach: "I don’t think we can do that. Cutting would be permanent." Glad they are so willing to work with me on my apparently short T-Rex arms… I finally give up the fight after the mechanic promises to find a way to make the too-long bars work and then moves on to intensely concentrating on choosing the right color of bar tape (yes, color).

Surprise No. 7: I grab my road bike out of the mechanics’ area to ride home—with no saddle. Ordinarily I would expect this if I had left the bike outside unattended in NYC. Unfortunately, I was in a bike shop, which last I checked, sold saddles. Except to me. But I would not expect anything less from a business that prides itself on "exceeding customer expectations" than to make me ride standing up all the way home.

The XYZENCE bike fit is the best $150 I have ever spent!

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D-Day

This is it; I am picking up my new bike!

Surprise No. 8: Thank God XYZENCE has highly skilled and qualified mechanics because I take one look with my "advanced recreational rider” eyes and can see that the handlebars and aerobars are crooked. Not "he did not use a level" crooked but visibly "we let a 5-year-old install the handlebars" crooked. I also must have hands the size of a 5-year-old because the bar tape has been wrapped just five rotations, covering not more than 1/3 of the handlebar. When asked why it did not go all the way, they responded that I would not be able to get my hands under the aero pads otherwise. I guess they did not notice the impossibility of that anyway due to the crooked handlebars. I am also thrilled to report that the aero pads were not screwed on all the way, the brake cables were not tightened, reaching the shifters was reminiscent of my road bike (i.e., I must completely remove my hands from the bars, even when in aero position), which is fine because the aero bars were cut from the top instead of the back, and still not nearly short enough (guess that goes back to my hulking 5' 3” and a half body height), the tires were pumped only to 80 psi, and the bike didn’t have any water bottle cages.(8) (At least this makes bike feel super light!)

Next, it’s ante-up time and when I see the invoice, it still includes an extra $115.

Surprise No. 9: When the manager comes over, he politely explains that it is more expensive here because the cost of living is higher in New York. Boy, am I glad I had asked about pricing weeks ago and if I should travel out of town down to the other XYZENCE in order to save some dough. But at least I am making up for the difference by not purchasing a saddle… Finally, because I was spending a considerable amount of money on a new bike, I thought I would see if there was any “break” for paying in cash, especially for all the trouble I had been through, but clearly I see that I managed to offend them by paying in cash.

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Customer Service for Life

After receiving my bike with the visibly crooked handlebars, loose brakes, etc., I cannot wait to go back in before my next race (Lake Placid Ironman) for my first tune-up! I ask how often I should return for a tune-up and was told to come back after 200 miles for the first one, and then every 300 miles thereafter. Well, I got the bike on Sunday, and I look forward to my first tune-up early next week after this weekend's long training. I am going to see if they schedule bi-weekly appointments so I don’t have to call again after every long training weekend...

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FOOTNOTES to Amanda's experience
by Ross Galitsky / TriLife Coaching

(1) We concealed the name of this local establishment with hope that Amanda’s experience is not a typical one.

(2) Toga’s Upper East Side location is 1153 First Avenue, 212-759-0002.

(3) Amanda has a “custom build” body. Her height and limbs lengths do not readily fit what bike manufacturers typically consider the proportions of a “standard” rider.

(4) Never underestimate the power of a bike's emotional appeal—its uniqueness, shape of the frame, color scheme/graphics, and your relationship to and narrative of the brand. All are elements that excite you about the bike, make you feel fast on it and motivate you to ride it.

(5) A true observation most of the time, since every shop wants to flip its inventory quickly and as long as it has such brand/model/year/size in stock and does not anticipate that they can sell such bike at full mark up in near future.

(6) The staff probably observed that Amanda’s cleats were old and/or battered and, deservingly, required replacement.

(7) Amanda is being sarcastic here; since bike frame geometries and rider positions are different on road bikes and tri/time-trial bikes, certain key fit dimensions should not match.

(8) “If you see something, say something.”… This could have been a result of an unusual oversight, inexperienced or temporary bike mechanic, or a systemic irresponsible approach, but Amanda will never know since she did not complain or even bring such issues to the staff’s attention.

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Post-Game Analysis

By Ross Galitsky / TriLife Coaching

Here is graded play-by-play of Amanda’s adventures in New York City’s high-end cycling market.

Bike selection process: “A-”

Amanda did reasonably solid homework for such a short search and selection process. She was flexible and opportunistic, researching bikes that became available online and locally. She understood from the start that the correct tri bike for her was not a specific brand or a model, or an offering by a specific bike shop, but the bike that was appropriate for her sport (triathlon) and race plans (Ironman to Olympic distances), that was sized and fit properly (a smaller or woman-specific frame), of respectable design and construction, within her budget, and that posses positive emotional appeal to her (frame shape and color).

Women riders, with their specific biometrics, are starting to benefit from larger offering of bikes available in female-appropriate sizes/body proportions. In the past, women were either fitted on smaller men’s frames or, once such bikes became available, onto bikes with 650C (26-inch) wheels. Today, many brands are producing whole ranges of bikes designed specifically for women (some with truly women-specific geometries, others just scaled down unisex bikes in “woman-friendly” color schemes). If a female rider is not extremely small, there likely will be a dilemma between choosing a unisex frame or a women-specific frame. In this case, ignore gender specialization and choose the one that fits best, is the better value, and has the most emotional appeal.

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Price negotiation: “B-”

A deal is a deal... to paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart "You know it when you see it." Unfortunately, quoting a price and then sticking to it is not a consistent characteristic among retailers. Note that an amazing deal in terms of economics does not mean the absolute best deal for you as an athlete. It is a deal only when it is a great price for the bike that’s RIGHT FOR YOU.

Amanda was very reasonable in her expectations during negotiations, as a quoted price is a form of moral contract, no matter which company representative committed to the price originally. She was offered a specially discounted price and was given a quote for the rest of the parts/services she wanted. She was reasonable in what she wanted and the sales staff agreed to the final price. But, Amanda held preliminary negotiations verbally and did not secure exact shop commitments on paper. And since she was handled by a number of employees in two separate locations, creating a relationship and/or single communications point was difficult. As a result, it was a struggle to hold one location to an already agreed to price given at a different location.

Technically, Amanda was also reasonable about her expectation for a minor discount for paying cash. Since credit card transactions typically increase the cost of sale by 2 to 5 percent, it was not unreasonable to expect that cash-only sale should allow bike shop to offer additional small discount, but such discounts need to be negotiated upfront.

As for substitutions and freebies, some leeway may have existed, but that is harder to define. On high-end bikes, such essentials as a pedals, water bottle cages, computer, etc., and such services as fitting and tune-ups are not included in the purchasing price. But because the profitability of certain high-end bikes (which carry higher profit margins for retailers) allows for some flexibility, bike shops may throw in some accessories, but the customer must clearly communicate and negotiate these items in advance.

If when buying a bike you are unable to negotiate a discount, you may try getting a discount for other components, accessories or services. A good reference point for possible discounts is whatever special deal/discount is given to a local sport team, club, or charity-affiliated endurance sports organization (Team in Training, Joints in Motion, etc.) and to ask if the shop will extend such as discount to you. Do not expect a local retail shop to match prices with an online store (unless it is the same store’s website) since a physical shop has higher overhead costs (rent, staff salaries, etc.) than an online-only business might and therefore higher operating costs. But since many bike shops know and/or hope that satisfied customers will return for more gear, apparel and services in the future, a certain amount of voluntary freebies or discounts resulting from customer haggling can be expected.

Unfortunately, in urban centers like New York City, some retailers seem to forsake customer service efforts designed to encourage repeat customers, like the aforementioned freebies and discounts. Because the fairly consistent annual level of demand for their merchandise and services insures a continuous flow of new customers (note "new" – since most customers will not convert into returning ones) at busy, big city stores, the costs necessary to provide good customer service and sales support for returning customers are less profitable to a retailer’s bottom line than simply selling a bike to someone new.

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Spec’d Bike: “B”

Today, most bikes are shipped to shops “boxed” — partially assembled and with almost all the necessary components pre-selected by manufacturer. It is a trend that actually makes it more trouble for a shop to build a bike with parts not supplied with the bike. Truly high-end and exotic bikes, though, are still sold as frame/fork combinations and built from the frame up, with all parts being selected by the customer and/or bike shop.

The costs of a high-end bike get split up between the frameset (frame, fork and, on some models, the headset and seat post), component groupset (shifters, brakes, crankset, derailers, cables, etc.), wheels (with skewers, rim tape, tubes and tires), and other required parts (bars, stem, saddle, bar tape, etc.) If spec'ing a bike from the frame up, a customer can choose where to spend a lot and where to save. The groupset price may be negotiable but it also can be upgraded later if you decide to initially buy lower level components. Note that some individual components may be of higher value/quality (typically the rear derailleur) than the rest of the component group on new bikes as these items are the highly visible and/or the most abused working parts.

Better bike shops and bike fitting services let you try assorted saddles before or after you buy a bike or saddle. It was a failure both of customer service and sales initiative not to react to the obviously missing saddle on Amanda's bike.

Amanda does not mention wheels. But wheels are a piece of equipment where the money can be saved and/or make a difference. The choice of training and/or racing wheelset is a customer decision and obviously affects costs tremendously. Being able to afford only one wheelset is not a reason to limit yourself only to a race set. In this case, moderately light and aerodynamic but durable wheels are a better choice. There are other parts where bike shop and customer can save; for example, inexpensive and stupidly expensive water bottle cages or seat posts perform exactly the same roles.

Amanda did not need or wanted significant modifications from her "boxed bike" set up. Kuota bikes are typically shipped with Shimano or SRAM components, and Amanda, after specifying most components upfront (Shimano), was only interested in an after-market selection of saddle and handlebar/aerobars. Her requests were reasonable but the shop performed inadequately. Amanda did fail to escalate her case and/or demand credit or desired equipment.

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Bike Fit: “C”

There exists no bike fit system that will guarantee a perfect fit. That being said, better fitters can get within such a close margin of correct fit that adjustments may be absorbed by the body as part of the change from one bike to another (which usually and naturally feel strange anyway). If a bike shop commits to a formal fit service, do not be afraid to get the shop to make further adjustments after a couple weeks in the saddle (meaning at least several separate rides).

Amanda’s unfulfilling bike fit experience, sadly, is not an unusual case. The quality and the cost of bike fittings vary per individual/company performing service, the methodology used and the scope of services performed. While bike fitting is a common service now, the exact content varies widely, from "if you can stand over the top tube, bike is right for you" to more scientific determinations of numerous parameters of personal physiological characteristics. Bike fittings may be successful even if they rely on "experienced eye" or on assorted statistical models. Most fitting methodologies result in a set of numbers that are derived from rider’s biomechanical data taken by measuring the body - height, inseam, femur and arm lengths, chest/shoulder width, etc. Some methodologies are based on models that use measurement of bones between the joints, others on external measurements between certain points of the body, but all basically end up with a set of dimensions that relate to the positions of the joints on your skeleton. Recommending a frame size based on the body height or the inseam standover length only is irresponsible since such simplistic measurements ignore the body's other proportions and the rider physiological uniqueness. It is unusual if during the bike fit you are not prodded and nudged and not required to wear your typical riding apparel (shorts, socks and shoes). The outcome of the bike fit might be two sets of data: the theoretically “ideal” bike frame (specific for you today and for the type of riding you want to focus on) that can be used to build truly unique, custom frame/bike for you, and what can be actually used to set up the existing bike.

Note that these data sets are derived from assumptions about certain types of riding and human anatomy —  recreational riding will be different from long-distance touring, fitness enthusiast will be different from Cat. 3 roadie, road bike will be different from a time trial machine. Regardless of the methodology or model used, bike fits are all heuristic designs — they are partially based on "rules of thumb" and are partially educated guesses with some level of intuitive judgments and common sense mixed in. Many statistical bike fit models are derived from and then validated against hundreds of bike fits, meaning that normal distribution dominates — if you are biometrically normal, the model will work well but if you are the person who has some body measurements at the edges of the normal distribution bell curve (as does Amanda), then the standard fit model may not work and you will require a more complex fitting.

In the past, the art and science of bike fit belonged to a small guild of professionals who worked full time in the cycling industry. With the recent expansion of sport retail and the service industry, related market liberation and associated service laxity, and the growth of participants/demand, a large number of bike fit services have proliferated. Some fitters are students of the subject, some are simply economic opportunists, but most who have been through the training, bought equipment and are intellectually capable, should be able to generate frame sizing and bike fit diagrams. This trend continues as many shops de-skill this task to make bike sizing and fitting faster and cheaper.

Bike fits are also becoming more common and needed due to the bike manufacturing processes. Almost all bike manufacturers used to make their frames in stock sizes; typically in 1cm or 2cm increments from 49 cm through to 60+ cm. Currently, due to the costs involved in designing and making molds for carbon fiber frames, companies choose to fabricate only four to six sizes (think XS to XL nomenclature) and make these sizes appropriate to the riders via other bike parts. Because most bike manufacturers use different geometries in their designs, there are dimensions/fit differences between brands and even models. Understanding bike dimensions/geometry is a necessary headache in case you not have a trustworthy sales person that can explain why a 56 cm brand X would fit you while a 56 cm brand Y would not.

Any bike shop should be prepared to make some adjustments to a stock bike. If you need the stem or the bars changed (to get the fit right), some shops will do so for free, others will charge you. If it was a “boxed” bike, then there will be limits on what can be changed or modified before you will need to contribute to the shop’s expenses. Typically, stems, saddles and handlebars are as far as bike shop will go.

Amanda allowed inadequate service to proceed and did not take control by escalating issues or requesting, via management, better resources. She was lucky that her prior bike fit numbers permitted setting up her new bike in an adequate geometry. Overall bike purchase experience grade is B-.

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Copyright © 2008 Ross Galitsky / TriLife Coaching

 


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